Is anybody out there?
Posted by Josie on Feb 24, 2010 in Uncategorized | 69 comments
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Fascinating post, Josie. Love it! I was brought up Catholic which has put me off religion so I don't pray. However, and it's a big however, in circumstances such as your recent one with Kai, I would definately start praying. I would instantly want to pled to someone out there, anyone, to help. I know many people who pray regularly and it brings them great comfort. Others, like me, do so in times of severe stress when all else seems lost. I've had a few unusual experiences when things have seemed desperate and then my luck has changed in a instant, as if someone or something is looking after me. Is there anybody out there? Big question! Sometimes it feels like there is, but who knows! I love a post that gets me thinking!
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 12:54 pmIt's such a weird one isn't it. It's almost instinctual, that need to 'ask' for something, to surrender to something. I often wonder if that instinct is a natural one or one that stems from years of religious upbringing. I was brought up in a very Christian household too (Dad was a minister!) and even if I don't hold those beliefs any more it has certainly shaped my behaviours I think.
As with all these things, what's 'right' is a bit immaterial, but it IS important that we think about it. Or at least, I believe it is
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I have prayed many times for things, for strength, for health, for understanding, for fortune and you know sometimes my prayers get answered. I have always believed there is a life after death and I believe in God. I believe that people watch over us when they have died and I believe my nan comes to visit me in my dreams. My mum thinks i'm crazy but i have always had vivd dreams of whats to come in the future, i have predicted 4deaths and illnesses correctly. One dream i had was about a woman on an operating table having some sort of keyhole surgery. My mum told me the next day she was having her gall bladder out! It is nice to have a belief and even though i don't go to church I still believe. x
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This is a brilliant post Josie. I'm firmly in the discourse is everything camp and a fully paid up social constructionist (I blame the Open University!). The perpetual myth of life extending beyond our corporeal being is messy tho innit?
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 1:01 pmHa! Yes big fan of a good bit of discourse here too. My brother is an atheist and academic philosopher , my mother and step-mum are practising (gay) Christians and my dad is an agnostic ex-baptist minister, so as you can imagine our conversations on topics like this get rather interesting!!
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MrsW Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 6:58 pmNow there's a dinner party and a half! What a fascinating smorgasboard to immerse in. Of course I now have visions of you all rather genteely engaging in philosophical discussions drinking port and smoking pipes (yeah you too)… s'not like that is it? Oh tell me it is
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 8:09 pmSadly no, no pipes or port. Mostly just gigantic cups of tea and less genteel more lots of playing devil's advocate and winding each other up
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I don't know what I believe but sometimes I still pray, and then I feel guilty as should I really expect my prayers to be answered. Number five was ill when he was born and for months afterwards…I prayed, my prayers were answered- or were they? I don't know but I do believe prayers are there to give people hope and something to focus on and then hopefully something to be thankful for. :0)
So pleased Kai is getting better, as I said before you can often go around in circles with these illnesses but they bounce back quickly when they're ready and he'll be back to his chubby self in no time. Take care.[Reply]
Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 8:38 pmI'm all for things that give people strength and hope. But sometimes I wonder whether prayer is a bit defeatist? A bit 'I'll let someone else sort this out while I sit back passively and wait for things to happen'? I don't know, I know not all prayers are like this. Sometimes, like in the case with Kai sick and with your little one too, you CAN'T do anything BUT hope and pray.
In any case, I'm glad yours were answered
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I am pretty much like you. I don't necessarily believe in anything but I find myself sometimes asking some kind of higher power for help. I don't believe in organised religion. I think that religion stemmed from our need to understand things that we could not understand and surely it is something we fall back on when we can't explain something. Miracle, anyone? Serge Gainsbourg, a very famous french artist once said: Men created Gods, the inverse remains to be proven.
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Ah yes. I think sometimes when you can't cope, it's just clever thinking to pass the problem on to the universe, or whatever might be out there. It leaves you free to do what needs to be done, without the constant fretting.
As a lapsed Catholic, I suppose my beliefs are very close to yours. I'd like there to be “something,” but I lean most towards believing in people and their goodness rather than a deity. I love meditation, but I can imagine it's all just a way to release good hormones or make you peaceful in your body.
So glad Kai is doing better.
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 8:59 pmI like that idea, that almost be letting go with prayer you free up your energy to focus and move forward. I tend to feel the same thing about meditation. Less tapping into something 'out' but tapping into something 'in'. Really struggle to meditate though since having Kai. I hope it's something I can get back as it used to be a big part of my life.
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Great post, Josie. Kudos to you for tackling such a difficult subject. I really don't know. I'd like to believe – I think I do – but I'm not a paid up member of any religion. I'm not an atheist. I'm not an agnostic. I envy people who have that faith underpinning their lives. I don't pray and feel slightly uncomfortable when prayers go round on twitter. I was extremely angry with God when my sister died when I was 9 and it sort of shattered what faith I had. Or maybe I didn't have any but I went to church with my parents and Sunday school etc. I suppose I'm spiritual – that catch all term! Glad your son is on the mend.
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 9:02 pmI think 'spiritual' is perfectly acceptable term! And I think it's one more and more people are adopting for themselves. I think anger in situations like that is healthy. I'm always slightly suspicious (and scared!) of people who manage to forgive and accept almost anything in the name of 'faith'. Maybe that's a bit harsh of me, surely letting go of pain is a good thing but I can't help but thinking working through normal human emotions about things is healthier in the longer term!
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Funnily enough the second blog post I've read on belief and faith in two days. Maybe someone out there is trying to tell me something. I pray most days. Once upon a time, during my schooling and University days, I used to pray for at least an hour a day and went to church for four hours on sundays! I've seen some pretty horrible things carried out in the name of religion and the church, which one day I may write about. I call it the spiritual abuse time of my life. It's taken many years for me to darken the door of a church. These days I have come back to what I would say was a spiritual balance. I am very spiritual but I dip my toes in and out of formalised religion. I pray to the God of the Universe (who may well be Allah and Yahweh and Krishna) but I struggle with mankind's translation of 'who' that entity is. I don't do religious rules. I don't preach or convert. I swear, get drunk and carry-on and remarkably still believe that I have a vital relationship with a Being who I don't understand, but who is omnipotent. If I understood God and could define him/her would that make me a god too? Great post. Good thinking fodder! Glad your prayer was answered. xx
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A really interesting post Josie. You can't be anymore non-religious than me, I just don't get it. But that said, when Lily was taken away from me and into SCBU when she was only hours old and I was told she might not make it through the night. I prayed and I prayed to any higher being their might be, and she pulled through. I don't know if it was down to prayer or if it was a coincidence either? I think it's a natural human instinct to look for something outside of ourselves, and thankfully sometimes it might just work.
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Very interesting post and comments, love ones that get me thinking!
Personally I was brought up Christian, I went to church twice a week and celebrated all the Christian holidays. However I always had a huge amount of questions and doubt, I asked several priests and teachers and my parents and none of their answers helped. Then when I started high school I was bullied, lost my Gran (who had lived with us) and my Dad and went through a whole host of mental health issues, that eradicated any faith in a Christian god that I had. For years I soul searched and researched as many different religions as I could find to find one that felt right, then I discovered Wicca and I have never questioned it. It is a faith that I now realise I have held all my life but did not have a name for it, I have no questions surrounding it, it just feels right and it makes sense to me. I pray as and when I feel I need to and try to appreciate nature and thank the Goddess each day but I have no formal form of worship and I feel no need to.
I don't think religion is something that should make you feel guilty or bad or uncomfortable, it should sooth your soul.[Reply]
Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 9:20 pmHi PrincessL!
I'm fascinated by Wicca, in fact if I was to define myself as anything (although I do tend to avoid doing so) I would class myself as a very loose pagan. I have a bookshelf full of books about Wicca, Shamanism, Druidry as well as lots of other comparative 'Earth' religions. I'm glad you found sometihng that made you feel whole and that is right for you – that is quite a gift.
I'm just not sure about your last sentence. I think religion (or organised religion anyway, not Wicca so much) is DESIGNED to make you feel a bit uncomfortable! It is a lot about ideas of right and wrong after all. I tend to feel guilt is inevitable with organised religion – one of the reasons I tend to avoid it I think, I feel guilty about so much stuff already!!
Thanks for your comment!
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I am a Christian and do believe in a God who answers prayers – so, yes: I believe he answered yours. I don't believe you have to be a church-goer for God to love you and care for you. I don't believe you have to follow a specific faith or doctrine for prayers to be answered. I do believe God loves everyone, regardless of their circumstances or history. And I have seen on many occasions answers to prayers like yours – and even some miraculous cures when all logic disputes the results. Jesus healed a blind man without requiring that he believe (or went to church or signed on a dotted line): I believe he still heals today regardless of stated faith and beliefs.
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 9:23 pmMy mum holds a similar belief so it's one I have a lot of sympathy in. I guess my problem comes in why God would chose to heal some and not others? Not that you have that answer but it is a stumbling block I seem unable to get past!
Thanks for your comment Catherine!
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Fooey-looks like it did. When will i ever learn and just copy and paste in word before hitting the reply button. *Sighs* Maybe I will have energy to post again later, or maybe I just didn't pray enough
, or maybe what I wrote was not meant to be seen-oh well…[Reply]
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Very interesting post, Josie. (I've been considering a political post, myself, but Chris says I shouldn't, as apparently I write really badly on politics. Hmm.)
I am pretty atheist, but a wee bit agnostic, too. Don't believe in a Christian God (or any of the organised religions) and have big concerns about things that have been done in the name of religion. But, even with that, I like a lot of the traditions and festivals that come with religions. However, I have always believed in some kind of spirituality, even if it's just the presence (in some way) of those who have gone before. I have a half-written post, in fact, about my fairy godmother (yes, I know, sounds nuts!), that I may or may not finish some time.
And, yes, despite not believing in some omniscient, omnipotent being, I have prayed. I prayed that I would get to keep Rosemary, having lost two babies before, though I also prayed to get pregnant the time before and then lost that baby and a fallopian tube, so if my prayers were answered, perhaps there were conditions that I did not meet that time. I prayed for Rosemary to be OK when she was in SCBU. I prayed for Eleanor to latch on properly. I prayed for my dad to get well (that one wasn't answered) and for my Granny to get well (again, that wasn't answered either – perhaps it was just their time and no amount of praying would have affected the outcome!
And whenever I do pray, I feel guilty and wonder if there is someone answering prayers aren't they going to be really annoyed with me for having the audacity to pray to them, but not believe in them!
Very thought-provoking.
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:11 pmI would love to read your fairy godmother post!
I guess that's one of the hardest things about prayer – reconciling ourselves to the ones that DON'T get answered and trying to find a way to understand why some prayers seem to get a 'yes' and others a 'no'. So, so hard. My difficulty becomes that if I begin to believe in a God that answers prayers then I automatically get so unbelievably angry at him that I don't WANT to believe in him!
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Susie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:39 pmI don't know what issues you have had in the past and why you are angry at God. If you wanted to discuss it either here or by email I would be glad to see if there is anything I can say to help you.
The one thing that comforts me is that if I don't find a reason for something happening to me and if I can't find a positive spin on it, I just assume that I don't know everything and don't see all the aspects of something. Yes it's a faith thing and I know many people have envied the fact that people who are religious have an easier time dealing with grief.
As far as not seeing all the aspects of things happening-the Jewish holiday of Purim is in a few days and we read a scroll called a megilla. It tells the story of Jews in Persia in the olden time and them being saved from destruction. It is a tale that when you read it, you see how everything is connected. What is amazing is that i am sure that people living at that time did not see it quite as clearly, because the story in the scroll occurs over the span of 9 years.
Also in response to your comment on my blog post, I suggested another book called Soul's Plan by robert schwartz. Think it would be an interesting read for you.
HUGS!
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:48 pmOh I'm not especially angry at God! I don't really believe in one enough TO be angry! But I can't imagine believing and NOT being angry if that makes sense!
It does come down to faith, of course. Sometimes I do envy that, other times not so much.
Thank you for your kindness and your reading suggestions too – much appreciated xx
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Great blog! I agree with so much of what you say. Funnily being a parent brings things into sharp focus. Every time I am asked to explain anything complicated it seems that religion offers an expedient answer (eg, death). I also hugely rate Jung. As a mum I want to open out Sarita to the concept of belief beyond the material. Do I pray? At times it is hard not to try to reach out to something, anything. Do I believe in it? I am not sure I do but it is a very human thing to try!
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:12 pmI think it is a very human thing too, and that fascinates me. It is going to be a challenge bringing up Kai in an environment without religion. Sometimes i do envy those parents that have a ready-prepared list of explanations to hand provided by their faith/religion!
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Incredible post Josie. I would have described myself as atheist/agnostic up until 2-3 years ago. Then my marriage started to fall apart and everything about my life was being turned upside down by being a mother. I was depressed and confused and couldn't see a way out of my situation. I felt and acted like a victim. Then my sister pressed and pressed me to read the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsh. 'But I don't believe in God”, I told her (repeatedly). “Just read the bloody book will you', she kept replying. Eventually I did, for the want of anything better to do. And it sounds corny to say it, but my perception on my life changed almost over night. Now this isn't a book about the religious christian God, that I for one grew up with. And I can't even begin to get into it here. But it led me to read much more material and my thinking and actions began to shift and suddenly I could just see and feel all the positive amidst all the gloom. And things began to change as I began to change how I was handling situations. Ulimately it led me to Kabbalah, a much misunderstood spiritual system which is neither a religion or a cult. I have been a student for 2 years – and yes, I now believe in a creative force of energy (which some people might choose to call God but which I don't) and in general quantum physics laws of the universe about the application of positive and negative energy, cause and effect. Again, I am not going to make any sense in this comment but knowing (and having personal evidence) that there is something beyond my 5 senses that I can align with has drastically altered my life, the people in it, my reaction to situations and also the outcomes.
I haven't ever touched on this in my blog and maybe I should. I certainly don't want to preach about it because it is very personal and to be honest one of the reasons I haven't put it out there is that I don't want to start a debate about. People are entitled to their opinions and I totally respect that – but I am so happy and confident and comfortable in what I am choosing to believe that I don't want to get into a situation where I feel I have to defend myself.
Oh blimey. What a ramble. I think this is a powerful and honest post and I am glad that your 'messages' and requests for assistance while you are struggling were heard. Speedy recovery to Kai. xxx
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:21 pmKabbalah! How fascinating! I know very, very little about so make no pre-conceived judgements there, but the idea of a mystical belief system (which is what I think of it as? could be wrong!) is appealing. I've always been drawn to more mystic sides of religion – that is beliefs based on religious experience rather than just prescribed doctrine. Quite *what* people experience when they experience spiritual and mystical 'truths' I don't know, but as someone that's never felt wholly grounded in reality I can see their pull.
I can appreciate your hesitancy in blogging about something so personal and so fundamentally a part of you but I for one would be fascinated to read more about your experiences and how this journey of yours has affected you. If you ever decide to do so, will you please let me know?
Thanks so much for your comment!
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Firstly i'm thrilled to hear Kai is eating again! Secondly, I wish i knew. I am not religious at all, I don't believe in worshipping anything (except Cake) and yet,… i don't know. Something i live in confusion about. i believe there is something, something spiritual, something more than just us…I don't know what it is though. sorry to be a bit rubbish about it, bit of a pointless comment really.
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:23 pmI'm all for cake worship.
And not a pointless comment at all! Actually comforting to hear from someone who is as confused as me!!
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notesfromlapland Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:25 pmmaybe we could start our own cake worshipping cult?
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:29 pmOooh we should!! Although I'm thinking there should be room for demi-gods 'tea' 'toast' and 'chocolate' too.
notesfromlapland Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:37 pmoh definitely! and we could make slankets our official cult garb!
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I am so pleased that Kai is eating again and that you don't have to contend with the nappies!
But what more can I say Josie – your prayers were answered – it is so difficult to understand and I don't know what happens but it happens. For that we can be thankful for. I would say, Thank God for – but if you don't believe in God that is difficult.
The really difficult thing for me to understand is why some prayers are answered and some are not. As a practising Christian the problem of God allowing suffering to happen is the one that is asked most frequesntly. As a liberal Anglican I cannot go down the route of original sin and natural law and all that sort of thought as I have different views from that.
But suffering happens, there are earthquakes, mudslides, famine and so on – why doesn't God stop it all? I don't know – for now I see in a mirror dimly – but one day… There is another thought to add to your thoughts too – your mum came to see me on Sunday night after she had been with you and told me about Kai – guess who has been prayed for? Our prayers together with yours were answered!
From rambling Sid Rumpo XXX
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Phew, I feel like I've just been sat in one of my husband's philosophy and ethics lessons with his sixth form! This is exactly the kind of post my hubs would love to read – I'll get him to take a glance later… This is so along my way of thinking and I agree with so much of what you've said. I remember that when my first marriage was breaking down, while I managed to stay rational and strong for the majority of the time I did break down once or twice and found myself praying to a 'larger being' out there somewhere to either explain why it was all happening or simply to give me the strength to carry on and move forward. It's difficult to know who or what I was actually praying to but felt, at that time, that I just wasn't strong enough or in enough control of my life to make the right decisions. It didn't last long and I think it was made worse by stress and tiredness but yes, I can understand how you were feeling during your time of prayer.
Such a massive and endlessly fascinating area – my husband teaches me new stuff all the time!
Thanks for this post!
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:44 pmOh your husband sounds like an interesting chap!
Weird isn't it? How prayer sometimes feels like a bit of a defeat? I guess religious folk would see this kind of surrender as a positive thing but as someone who firmly believes in making her own destiny it doesn't always feel like this to me! Especially when you're tired and vulnerable.
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Despite being raised a Catholic I'm quite agonostic… except when I really really need to pray, and yes inevitably that's when someone close to me is sick or in trouble. So when No 1 Son lost consciousness and had to on on oxygen in A&E (severe asthma attack) I was making all sorts of pacts. I also always go into churches in foreign countries, I don't know why, and light a candle for my lost loved ones. Any port in a storm, perhaps.
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:55 pmGosh that sounds scary
I am both attracted and repulsed by churches! I love the architecture, the flickering candles, the sound of the choirs, but inevitably end up feeling uncomfortable and oppressed by the weight of Christian 'law' handed down over the centuries. It's a strange ambivalence!
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I am a believer, in God, the hereafter, and the power of prayer….it is a fact that when people are desperate…they pray…whether they believe or whatever they believe in, if anything. What does that say to you?
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 9:56 pmI think that's what I want to figure out! I think it IS instinctual to pray, to reach out to something outside of ourselves, but quite why, whether this is something about the nature of humanity or about something 'divine' I don't know.
Thank you so much for your comment! Lovely to 'see' you here
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So glad your little man is eating again and doing better. It's so scary when they're ill. Like Rosie and Liz I was brought up Catholic, but having had a lot of problems with the beliefs that were hammered into me, like you I am kind of unsure. There are times when I pray, and I do think we go somewhere after we die, but maybe this is because I lost my Gran at 11 and have needed to 'talk to her' and believe she is 'somewhere' for the whole of my life. I tend to 'pray' to her I suppose, but it is not every day, week, or month. My children are in a Catholic school as I do want them to have some understanding of the beliefs I have grown up with and that mean so much to their grandparents, but equally they get a very balanced view as their dad is an atheist and I'm all for them making their own minds up. If anything I think I believe in an innate goodness in most people, whether they are religious or not, and I hope my kids believe in that too.
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Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:01 pmThat sounds like a very good thing to be instilling in your daughters. I tend to believe in people's 'goodness' too, though I am always a bit nervous in proclaiming what exactly is good and bad, right and wrong as I don't believe these things are always as simplistic as we make them out to be.
I am lucky in that I have never lost anyone I was really, really close to. Inevitably I will someday and I am, in a weird way, curious to see how that may change my outlook or my need for spiritual answers.
And thank you honey. It has been a scary time.
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Until fairly recently, I didn't really believe in much. But I read lots and lots and lots. If anything I began to harbour Western Buddhist leanings. Then I felt that I should learn more about the church of England and Christianity. Afterall it was the 'general' faith that I was brought up in. I started attending some meetings and occasionally going to church and I had both my children Christened. I wasn't sure at all and a lot of stuff at the meetings put me off. However, I have been taking part in the Lent Course run by the diocese of St Albans (its on their website) and part of it involves reading a bit of the bible and then thinking about it and simply letting it wash over you. I must say that I found that a very spiritual experience. This shocked me. I have prayed for things, to a general god. It helps.
I think religion and prayer is as much about you as about believing in a particular god. Particular gods provide the framework for you to begin connecting with yourself in a deeper way. I find that the thought processes involved help calm me and free my mind. I could go on and on and maybe one day I will….
Glad Kai is better, hugs to you xxx[Reply]
Josie Reply:
February 25th, 2010 at 10:05 pmI am a great believer in the idea that it's not always getting the answers, but asking the questions that is truly what's important and has the potential to bring us most growth. So yes, I think it's as much about connecting with ourselves as with anything 'out there'
x
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Josie Reply:
February 24th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Susie this is fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I (ashamedly) know very little about the Jewish faith and I am always so interested to read about people's beliefs and how they shape their lives and thinking.
I have a similar belief about things being connected, that words and actions affect reality on a wider level, so I guess that would fit, in a way, with your idea of the different, interconnected worlds.
I appreciate the book recommendations too – I'm always on the look out for new ideas to read about and digest. Somebody else mentions the book by Elizabeth Gilbert so I'm thinking that might definitely be worth looking up.
Thanks! x
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